Politiks

Bob Frankenberry · Fri May 18, 2007 1:41 am

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: For as smart as Einstein was, he could not have been that smart just from working in his study, Bob.

Why not? Why does it have to be God?

SummerHuntingtown07 · Fri May 18, 2007 1:45 am

Bob Frankenberry wrote: SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: For as smart as Einstein was, he could not have been that smart just from working in his study, Bob.

Why not? Why does it have to be God? I know, not you, but other people from agentkgb's old forum said things like that could happen by chance. It doesn't make sense for him to get that smart like that by chance.

Houndstooth · Fri May 18, 2007 1:45 am

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: For as smart as Einstein was, he could not have been that smart just from working in his study, Bob. I'm agreeing with everything Addie has said. Jason, I'm a Fundamentalist, and Mr. Frankenberry and I have been in disagreement on most religious/social issues for the last year. But before I post anything in this topic, I want to know your reasoning for that assertion.

SummerHuntingtown07 · Fri May 18, 2007 1:46 am

Because someone had to make him that smart, it could not have happened by chance.

Houndstooth · Fri May 18, 2007 1:49 am

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: Because someone had to make him that smart, it could not have happened by chance. No one's suggesting it happened by chance. The ideas being analyzed here are whether Einstein alone worked his way to a level of intelligence (given genetic predisposition and whatever else he had) or whether God "made him" that smart. First of all, what do you mean by God made him smart? Secondly, neither idea has to do with chance. Einstein could have wanted to be "smart" and worked his way to that level (on top of his genes). Do you mean that his genes were chance?

SummerHuntingtown07 · Fri May 18, 2007 1:52 am

God creates people, so that's why I am saying God created him smart.

Houndstooth · Fri May 18, 2007 2:45 am

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: God creates people, so that's why I am saying God created him smart. People create people. God made Adam and Eve, and God "forms us in the womb," but God's creating one of us does not determine what we choose to become. Obviously Einstein chose his fields of study. Yes, possibly with God's influence, but it's equally possible God didn't have Einstein's accomplishments in his plans. The point is that the idea that God had a hand in anyone's life, especially a non-believer like Einstein, is inarguable. I believe that he created me and everyone with a purpose(s) in mind, but what we become (especially unbelievers) may or may not have anything to do with what God intended. You can't argue for or against what Einstein became having any relation to God's plan because first, no one but God knows, and secondly, Einstein wasn't a believer. Jeremiah 29:11 does not imply that everyone who does well in life does well because God intended it to be so. Romans 8:28 does not appear to apply to unbelievers (such as Einstein). Thus, unless the person is a Christian and has a personal testimony to the works wrought in their life by God (and even this wouldn't be digestible to someone like Mr. B), it's really difficult to say and impossible to argue in a debate setting whether or not God had a hand in what happened. You can believe He did (as we all do for given people), but how can you argue that to a non-believer? It might be the truth that God had a plan for Einstein and that his life worked out according to that plan, but that's not the same as what you're saying: that God made him smart. Have you considered yourself? What would you say God has made you? I'd say He's put me in certain specific situations in life so that I see things a certain way now, or I've experienced certain events so that I have a different perspective now, but as far as what I'm "smart" in, that's really got a lot to do with what I've wanted to be smart in. If you think that God knew what I'd do with myself through school, I agree. If you think that God wanted me to pursue the "good" things that I've pursued so far in life, I'd agree (because my life has worked out well and being a Christian, I attribute that to God's hand). But it's not as simple as "God made me smart in ______." The fact that I like (or dislike) ______ may have to do with God, but being profficient in _____ may not be connected to me liking ____ or not. Einstein obviously liked physics and math, but his brilliance in what he did may not have had anything to do with God. Here's the clincher: I'll agree that in general, regardless of whether one believes in Jesus or not, if a person who grows up liking ____ and turns out "smart" in _____ (given that ____ is a positive thing, and not for instance "murdering people") and obviously has abnormal talents in ____, there's a good chance that person's life was influenced by God. The first however, though, is that there's no way to know for sure or argue this to a non-believer (which is ok, because there are some ideas in the Bible that cannot really be argued to such). The second however, though, is that Einstein failed math. And in general sucked at school: some stupid website that has nothing to do with my point really so don't try to find it, I just didn't feel like going to the actual Encyc. wrote: The Encyclopedia Britannica says of Einstein's early education that he "showed little scholastic ability." It also says that at the age of 15, "with poor grades in history, geography, and languages, he left school with no diploma." Einstein himself wrote in a school paper of his "lack of imagination and practical ability." In 1895, Einstein failed a simple entrance exam to an engineering school in Zurich. This exam consisted mainly of mathematical problems, and Einstein showed himself to be mathematically inept in this exam. He then entered a lesser school hoping to use it as a stepping stone to the engineering school he could not get into, but after graduating in 1900, he still could not get a position at the engineering school! According to some, Einstein was a plagarist (and thus, became famous after copying someone else's work). But throwing this idea out, we are still left with a description of an average if not subaverage child who later became arguably the most famous scientist of all time. So this throws out genetics (which is more likely for God to have had a hand in) and leaves us with personal will. I don't think it's likely (though it is possible) that God had a hand in the brilliance of Einstein given his predisposition to learning. Maybe he miraculously altered Einstein's mind in order to achieve some goal like the creation of the atom bomb or Theory of Relativity (yes, I am being very hypothetical), but that's not arguable. God has used unqualified people to get certain goals achieved, but to argue that Einstein was "made smart" by God as your main argument for the existence of God is, essentially, a bad idea.

I'm sorry for the prolix paragraphs above, that's just how I write. But to sum it up: the existence of God cannot be proven based on how smart a given individual (especially in the case of Einstein) is, especially considering for your example Einstein's religious standing.

EDIT: Ok, where do you see God's hand (specifically) in this:
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/einstein.html (an abbrieviated biography of Einstein).

EDIT 2: Ok, apparently Einstein didn't fail math - http://www.time.com/time/2007/einstein/3.html . So ignore that part.

Maximus Vigilus · Fri May 18, 2007 2:56 am

LeilaniSurferGirl wrote: Again, why does someone have to have thought about this? Could have no just happened through a stroke of probability?

Well, I decided against the last post being my last.

You want to call your brain having more memory than a computer a stroke of probability? You want to call the ability for us to taste food a stroke of probability? You want to call a magnificent sunset a stroke of probability? You want to call Albert Einsten's mind a stroke of probability?

What about evolution? Do you HONESTLY think that Albert Einsten became that smart by evolving from a monkey or a tapeworm?????

I'm sorry. My blood pressure is rising. But, can you honestly tell me that you believe this world started with a BANG! and we have all the lovely things we have? We have the ability to do the things we can do? Oh no. Someone had to think of it! Who would have thought to camoflauge the female cardinal to protect her babies, while brightly coloring her husband to protect her? Not probability, as I've studied it this past year, and I can guarantee, it's not evolution. That just doesn't happen.

<Pictures>

Can you honestly tell me that probability made this beauty?

All of that in its entirety was ludicrous. You see, it would have been nice if some of your points were actually valid or relevant.

Quote: That just doesn't happen

Unless of course, God planned that.

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: For as smart as Einstein was, he could not have been that smart just from working in his study, Bob. I'm agreeing with everything Addie has said.

First, why? And second, the point you seem to be trying to argue is that God gives you intelligence and that learning is irrelevant.

It seems God has already given me my intelligence and I should just quit school now because I am as smart as I will ever be.

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: God creates people, so that's why I am saying God created him smart.

Again provide more reasoning, and explanation than- "God made him, so he must be smart." Honestly let us try and be a little more intelligent than "It is true because God said so." God gives us the capacity and free will to do as much in this life as we can, he gives us a choice, and those choices determine who you are, not God.

And Houndstooth basically summed up much of everything else I was going to say.

Houndstooth · Fri May 18, 2007 3:05 am

Ther wrote: Honestly let us try and be a little more intelligent than "It is true because God said so." This argument is valid between Christians, but like Maximus is suggesting (albiet harshly) it doesn't work for cross-religious-view-based debates. God/God's influence doesn't play a role in their worldviews. If you can't try to find something that can be argued from both sides, or at least made applicable to theirs, just keep your beliefs to yourself unless you are evangelizing.

SummerHuntingtown07 · Sat May 19, 2007 1:51 pm

He would have to be alive at least 400 years to just "get" that smart in my opionion.

Ulyanov · Sat May 19, 2007 2:22 pm

LeilaniSurferGirl wrote: Sorry for being gone for so long. I often don't have time to do much else with my own website.

Anyway, Ulyanov, I'm just going to talk about your last point right now.

God has the power to do anything.

Several months ago, I needed money to pay for something, and I prayed. The very next day, one of my mothers friends called and asked I would clean for her. I earned $32 in two days.

Once again, I found myself needing money, and I prayed. Wednesday night, at my youth group, we had a money machine. My name was called, and I got $46.

I would not call this a coincidence. I would call this God answering His child. Scripture says somewhere that if one of God's children is in need, He will provide. I truly believe that God has huge plans for my life. Huge. I can clearly see His hand over my life. I can see His hand when I was younger, and didn't care. I see Him in so many things. I'm going to be open with you, as I know this is true.
I would call it luck. Besides, if you won $46, someone had to lose $46.

Quote: One night, I was laying in bed, drifting off to sleep. I've had a bit of a rough past (nothing extremely serious) and with being a teen girl, I have pretty severe mood swings. I was just fine, and all of a sudden, I had this acute pain that pierced my heart, and I cried out. Then I just started weeping. I rolled onto my back with my eyes open. I closed my eyes, and breathed in, and I heard clearly a voice that said, "I'm here my child." The awesome thing is, I had been reading a book in the Mitfod Series, and the Episcopal rector had been given four words to preach on: In everything give thanks. Those are my four words. I'm here my child. And as soon as He said that, the pain immediately stopped. I immediately calmed down, and I immediately felt at peace.

I remember another time where I was also upset, and I had this almost fuzzy feeling, and then I just truly felt peaceful. At rest with who I am. Who I will be. What God has in store for me.
I bolded what I thought was relevant.

Roy's Our Boy · Sat May 19, 2007 3:17 pm

You would have to be alive at least -400 years to just "get" that stupid in my opionion.

SummerHuntingtown07 · Sat May 19, 2007 4:42 pm

Ulyanov wrote: LeilaniSurferGirl wrote: Sorry for being gone for so long. I often don't have time to do much else with my own website.

Anyway, Ulyanov, I'm just going to talk about your last point right now.

God has the power to do anything.

Several months ago, I needed money to pay for something, and I prayed. The very next day, one of my mothers friends called and asked I would clean for her. I earned $32 in two days.

Once again, I found myself needing money, and I prayed. Wednesday night, at my youth group, we had a money machine. My name was called, and I got $46.

I would not call this a coincidence. I would call this God answering His child. Scripture says somewhere that if one of God's children is in need, He will provide. I truly believe that God has huge plans for my life. Huge. I can clearly see His hand over my life. I can see His hand when I was younger, and didn't care. I see Him in so many things. I'm going to be open with you, as I know this is true.
I would call it luck. Besides, if you won $46, someone had to lose $46.

Quote: One night, I was laying in bed, drifting off to sleep. I've had a bit of a rough past (nothing extremely serious) and with being a teen girl, I have pretty severe mood swings. I was just fine, and all of a sudden, I had this acute pain that pierced my heart, and I cried out. Then I just started weeping. I rolled onto my back with my eyes open. I closed my eyes, and breathed in, and I heard clearly a voice that said, "I'm here my child." The awesome thing is, I had been reading a book in the Mitfod Series, and the Episcopal rector had been given four words to preach on: In everything give thanks. Those are my four words. I'm here my child. And as soon as He said that, the pain immediately stopped. I immediately calmed down, and I immediately felt at peace.

I remember another time where I was also upset, and I had this almost fuzzy feeling, and then I just truly felt peaceful. At rest with who I am. Who I will be. What God has in store for me.
I bolded what I thought was relevant. I just don't understand how you can think that is luck. Things like that happen too often to a lot of people for that to be just luck.

Bob Frankenberry · Sat May 19, 2007 5:41 pm

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: He would have to be alive at least 400 years to just "get" that smart in my opionion.

In my opionion[sic], you aren't giving human beings enough credit.

Ulyanov · Sat May 19, 2007 9:46 pm

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: I just don't understand how you can think that is luck. Things like that happen too often to a lot of people for that to be just luck.
Compared to all the things that happen in the world in a day, absolutely not. Consider all the people who are unlucky, the people who lost the $46 dollars she got, the people who lose the lottery even though they're poor and someone rich won it, or the people who were born in Darfur. The thing is you only notice when something lucky happens that you've been hoping would, you're less likely to pay attention to all the times you wish you had guessed right on the multiple-choice question (you're home-schooled though, so I don't know how many multiple-choice tests you take, but anyway, I do a lot of them) and got it wrong instead and things like that.

Houndstooth · Mon May 21, 2007 1:48 am

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: He would have to be alive at least 400 years to just "get" that smart in my opionion. I would hope that you're old enough and intelligent enough to see the problems with that assertion. But apparently not given that you posted it.

SummerHuntingtown07 · Mon May 21, 2007 1:47 pm

To me, I'm sure he was smarter than a lot of kids probably when he was a small child, so he was born that way, that's why I'm saying he was created by God that smart.

Maximus Vigilus · Mon May 21, 2007 6:21 pm

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: To me, I'm sure he was smarter than a lot of kids probably when he was a small child, so he was born that way, that's why I'm saying he was created by God that smart.

Please stop, you are just embarrassing yourself.

Roy's Our Boy · Mon May 21, 2007 7:05 pm

Houndstooth wrote: SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: He would have to be alive at least 400 years to just "get" that smart in my opionion. I would hope that you're old enough and intelligent enough to see the problems with that assertion. But apparently not given that you posted it.

He is not in college yet. Because when you have to really [rely] on yourself, you can understand these things.

Bob Frankenberry · Mon May 21, 2007 8:27 pm

SummerHuntingtown07 wrote: To me, I'm sure he was smarter than a lot of kids probably when he was a small child, so he was born that way, that's why I'm saying he was created by God that smart.

...But you have to learn things.

I wasn't born knowing the things I know. Who do you think you are, Plato?